1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,500 2 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:01,550 So, welcome all. 3 00:00:01,550 --> 00:00:04,760 4 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,610 I'm Yochai Benkler I teach here. 5 00:00:07,610 --> 00:00:11,220 I do all of my research at Berkman Klein. 6 00:00:11,220 --> 00:00:17,020 It's an incredible honor and pleasure 7 00:00:17,020 --> 00:00:19,350 to have the benefit of the insight 8 00:00:19,350 --> 00:00:24,570 and wisdom of Justice Hanan Melcer of the Israeli Supreme 9 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:25,830 Court. 10 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:29,640 Justice Melcer started as an academic, as a lecturer, 11 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:36,750 had a major practice as a practitioner 12 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:40,380 and has been a justice of the Supreme Court 13 00:00:40,380 --> 00:00:44,340 and now, the Deputy president of the Supreme Court of Israel. 14 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:49,130 He is also, for the last 2 and 1/2 years, 15 00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:53,850 the chairman of Israel's Central Election Commission, 16 00:00:53,850 --> 00:00:55,860 which runs very differently. 17 00:00:55,860 --> 00:00:58,620 But as a practical matter, it meant 18 00:00:58,620 --> 00:01:05,040 that he ran as an administrator a major election organization 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,330 system. 20 00:01:06,330 --> 00:01:09,020 He was the [INAUDIBLE] prac-- 21 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:10,050 No, full [INAUDIBLE]. 22 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:15,630 He was the sole legal decider on questions of election law 23 00:01:15,630 --> 00:01:17,520 as things rolled out. 24 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,620 And as we'll hear today, Israel, which went through two election 25 00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:27,870 cycles in 2019, really saw everything 26 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:31,660 we saw in all our election cycles and then some, 27 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:35,190 and much that we will likely see in the next two years. 28 00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:38,410 And to have someone who was in the thick of it, 29 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:40,800 to have someone who, as we'll hear, 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:49,320 had the judicial courage to face a very powerful prime minister 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:50,970 and a very powerful governing party, 32 00:01:50,970 --> 00:01:56,130 and not always gold for them, is an inspiration 33 00:01:56,130 --> 00:01:59,100 and a symbol to us year here doing law and thinking 34 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,800 about the possibility of law offering 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,600 a genuinely independent check on political systems. 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,110 So, we're enormously grateful that you made the trip, 37 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:12,390 and are willing to speak to us, and help 38 00:02:12,390 --> 00:02:17,220 us learn to see a little bit into our own future 39 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:19,290 through your recent past. 40 00:02:19,290 --> 00:02:25,110 And commenting on Justice Melcer's proposal 41 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:28,560 and embellishing it, we have Professor Niva Elkin-Koren 42 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,510 from Haifa University who, a former dean, 43 00:02:33,510 --> 00:02:39,300 one of the leading technology and law people 44 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:43,290 I know and we all know, and who will 45 00:02:43,290 --> 00:02:46,790 give a little bit more background on detail 46 00:02:46,790 --> 00:02:48,240 on this whole system. 47 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,710 And then we'll open up for conversation. 48 00:02:50,710 --> 00:02:52,800 So again, Justice Melcer, thank you very much. 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,180 And please give him a round. 50 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:57,720 [APPLAUSE] 51 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,520 52 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,060 Professor Benkler, distinguished participants, 53 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:07,390 and esteemed guests, it is my honor to be here today 54 00:03:07,390 --> 00:03:10,290 and to speak to you. 55 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:12,980 And I thank you very much for the invitation 56 00:03:12,980 --> 00:03:14,220 and for the attendance. 57 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:29,090 58 00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:34,350 I decided to dedicate this lecture 59 00:03:34,350 --> 00:03:39,870 today in the memory of Chief Justice Meir Shamgar, who 60 00:03:39,870 --> 00:03:47,430 passed away on last Friday, and his funeral was held yesterday. 61 00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:54,360 Obviously, I could not attend, but I cherish his legacy. 62 00:03:54,360 --> 00:04:02,250 He was a legal giant and the master of national security 63 00:04:02,250 --> 00:04:09,000 law, which is connected to the issues 64 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,130 that we will discuss today. 65 00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:21,740 So, bless God and we cherish his memory. 66 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:27,770 Now, before I start my lecture, I have a warning point. 67 00:04:27,770 --> 00:04:30,320 68 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:38,660 Whatever I'll say here is not as a representative of the Supreme 69 00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:44,190 Court or of the Central Election Committee. 70 00:04:44,190 --> 00:04:47,370 And, as a matter of fact, whatever I'll tell 71 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:52,080 you is not necessarily even binding me, 72 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,040 and I'll tell you a story about that, a real story. 73 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,410 Before I was a justice of the Supreme Court, I had a law firm 74 00:05:01,410 --> 00:05:04,530 and I argued many cases before the Supreme Court. 75 00:05:04,530 --> 00:05:09,360 And once I heard the court case, it 76 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,530 was before the Chief Justice Aharon Barak 77 00:05:13,530 --> 00:05:17,790 And I told all my client that we are going, hopefully, 78 00:05:17,790 --> 00:05:21,560 to win the case, because I found an article of Professor Aharon 79 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,240 Barak when he was in academia. 80 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,860 And I based my argument on his article. 81 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:34,740 And his article really was in our favor. 82 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:39,750 And then we came before the court, and Professor Barak who 83 00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:48,150 read all the written material that I presented to him, 84 00:05:48,150 --> 00:05:55,260 said, "You quote a lot a paragraph of my article. 85 00:05:55,260 --> 00:05:57,600 I wrote it about 15 years ago. 86 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,450 And in the meantime, I have changed my mind." 87 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:02,760 [LAUGHING] 88 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,160 You can understand that I lost all the blood. 89 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,820 It went from my head to my feet. 90 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:16,920 And then he made another statement. 91 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,040 He said, "You have the chance to persuade me 92 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:26,730 that my previous understanding of the matter 93 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:32,610 was right and not my existing view." 94 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:39,450 So, really, I tried and successfully, I succeeded. 95 00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:43,320 But you have to understand that if any issue will come 96 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,160 before me and a new argument that I didn't think about 97 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,370 will come up. 98 00:06:48,370 --> 00:06:55,480 I'm not by bound by my own ideas here. 99 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:03,630 Now, as a matter of fact, in 2019, about 50% 100 00:07:03,630 --> 00:07:07,300 of the democratic world and the quasi-democratic rule 101 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:09,150 went for elections. 102 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:15,200 Just take India, which is more than one billion people, 103 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,840 a candidate that we had elections 104 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:25,050 at the end of this weekend in Brazil, 105 00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:29,180 all the European countries for the European Parliament 106 00:07:29,180 --> 00:07:34,700 and Switzerland last week, and in Israel twice. 107 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:43,110 And as you know, in Israel, the first elections 108 00:07:43,110 --> 00:07:49,230 which were held on April were held on April 109 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:52,260 because the prime minister decided 110 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:55,020 to call for early elections. 111 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:57,140 And then he couldn't form the government, 112 00:07:57,140 --> 00:07:59,430 so we called for another election. 113 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:02,370 So, we had two election campaigns 114 00:08:02,370 --> 00:08:06,360 in the elections in Israel just in 2019. 115 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:12,990 Now, I have to tell you that due to the fact that in 2019 there 116 00:08:12,990 --> 00:08:13,650 was-- 117 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:15,150 OK, I'm sorry. 118 00:08:15,150 --> 00:08:20,730 That due to the fact that in 2019-- 119 00:08:20,730 --> 00:08:25,020 if you don't hear, I will speak up. 120 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:29,170 We had two elections, but the first one was in April. 121 00:08:29,170 --> 00:08:33,390 And all those issues that I speak today about, 122 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:38,039 we were probably the first one to have those elections, 123 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:40,980 and that is why all the world looked 124 00:08:40,980 --> 00:08:45,290 at what is going on our issues in Israel. 125 00:08:45,290 --> 00:08:48,570 And from then and whatever we did 126 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:52,560 was the precedent for other countries in the world. 127 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,140 So it just happened like that. 128 00:08:57,140 --> 00:09:01,620 Now, as I see here, many familiar faces 129 00:09:01,620 --> 00:09:06,140 and in the closed session that we had for the morning, 130 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:11,990 I have had to explain the electoral system in Israel. 131 00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:15,740 But I see that there are many, many Israelis here, 132 00:09:15,740 --> 00:09:23,330 so I don't have to describe the Israeli election 133 00:09:23,330 --> 00:09:24,260 system in Israel. 134 00:09:24,260 --> 00:09:26,210 And besides that, Professor Benkler 135 00:09:26,210 --> 00:09:30,680 has asked me to go right into the examples 136 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:40,760 that I talked about in the closed session. 137 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,210 So your request is my command. 138 00:09:44,210 --> 00:09:49,190 And I'll go just to the point, and I'll 139 00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:55,870 try to describe you part of my experience 140 00:09:55,870 --> 00:10:01,280 in handling two election campaigns in Israel. 141 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,410 By the way, it's a precedent that a Supreme Court Justice is 142 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:08,980 handing two election campaigns. 143 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:13,960 But because there was such a small difference 144 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,840 in time between one election than the other one, 145 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,130 I was re-elected by the justices of the Supreme Court 146 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:27,550 to run the second elections as well as the first one. 147 00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:31,210 And I declared after the elections 148 00:10:31,210 --> 00:10:33,640 that if there'll be a third round, 149 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,940 I'm not going to do it anymore. 150 00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:41,000 So everyone has to know when to retire. 151 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,970 So I made that declaration. 152 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:53,400 Now, what I do, I'll try to describe to you four decisions 153 00:10:53,400 --> 00:11:02,170 of me in my capacity as the chairman of the Central 154 00:11:02,170 --> 00:11:03,985 Election Committee of Israel. 155 00:11:03,985 --> 00:11:05,360 And as a matter of fact, you have 156 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,570 to understand, as a chairman of the Central Election Committee, 157 00:11:10,570 --> 00:11:13,550 I have three basic functions. 158 00:11:13,550 --> 00:11:19,990 One is to be the, let's say, the chairman of the committee. 159 00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:24,340 And it was decided by the founding fathers when 160 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:28,930 the State of Israel was established that the Supreme 161 00:11:28,930 --> 00:11:35,110 Court Justice who will be chosen by all members of the Supreme 162 00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:38,980 Court will chair the Central Election 163 00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:46,000 Committee due to the fact that the founding fathers couldn't 164 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,340 agree on any other person to ensure that election, Central 165 00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:52,540 Election Committee. 166 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:56,920 And so it goes on from the moment the state of Israel 167 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,540 was established in 1948. 168 00:11:59,540 --> 00:12:06,730 So the first function is to be the chairman of the Central 169 00:12:06,730 --> 00:12:14,510 Election Committee and, in this capacity, 170 00:12:14,510 --> 00:12:17,450 I'm functioning as the chairman of a board. 171 00:12:17,450 --> 00:12:24,540 And the board is the committee which 172 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:29,460 is composed of 34 representatives of all existing 173 00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:33,730 parties in the Knesset. 174 00:12:33,730 --> 00:12:42,480 Then, and I have also a CO and a very small staff 175 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,280 that regularly is composed of about 30 people. 176 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:53,490 But once elections are declared, it goes up. 177 00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:56,160 And at the end of the day of the elections, 178 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,120 we employ altogether 100,000 people. 179 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,790 You have to understand, 100,000 people, 180 00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:08,520 if you compare it to any other action, 181 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,350 there is not any other action so huge 182 00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:16,950 in the civil life of Israel. 183 00:13:16,950 --> 00:13:20,130 And you just can't compare it to the army. 184 00:13:20,130 --> 00:13:26,040 And it's very much like to operate 185 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,260 about five divisions or three courts 186 00:13:30,260 --> 00:13:32,610 or five, six divisions and three courts. 187 00:13:32,610 --> 00:13:38,690 So, and then, on this function, I'm 188 00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:41,690 doing the job of the chief of staff. 189 00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:50,480 Now the second function is to decide on all legal matters. 190 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,160 And there, I have to decide on those matters exclusively, 191 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,940 because all the other members of the committee 192 00:13:58,940 --> 00:14:04,100 are political members and they all represent parties. 193 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,920 So on those matters, I decide exclusively. 194 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,140 Of course, any decision that I make it 195 00:14:12,140 --> 00:14:15,680 can be attacked in the Supreme Court. 196 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,260 197 00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:24,530 And people and parties are using this possibility. 198 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:31,390 I hope, as a matter of fact, in those two elections, 199 00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:33,560 there were many petitions against me, 200 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,060 but none of the petitions was accepted. 201 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:43,650 Again, it's a precedent, because in all the previous elections, 202 00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:45,680 some of these petitions were accepted, 203 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,540 so that's another precedent. 204 00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:53,570 Then, the third function, which is a new function. 205 00:14:53,570 --> 00:14:57,800 And it is a lesson of what happened in the United States 206 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:04,130 in the 2016 elections and in other places in the world 207 00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:10,520 is to try to stop a foreign intervention, and to deal with 208 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:17,910 and to handle with propaganda over the social networks. 209 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:22,970 So, the third function was something that never, ever 210 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:24,140 occurred in the past. 211 00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:31,640 And it was a new challenge that I had to struggle with. 212 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,200 Now, I devoted my time, about 50% 213 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,420 to the administrative functions, about 25% 214 00:15:38,420 --> 00:15:47,810 to the judicial functions, and 25% to the security methods. 215 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:54,650 And you have to understand, at the beginning, I didn't even-- 216 00:15:54,650 --> 00:15:58,410 I couldn't even tell anyone that I'm working on the security 217 00:15:58,410 --> 00:15:58,910 matters. 218 00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:02,090 So I was sitting in the court as regularly, 219 00:16:02,090 --> 00:16:06,440 and in the late afternoons, and in night, overnight, I 220 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,180 sat with all the security and the intelligence agencies 221 00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:14,960 to prepare ourselves for the third mission. 222 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,720 Just after the elections were declared, 223 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:24,050 then in a mutual decision with the security agencies, 224 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:29,760 we published a notice for to the public about it. 225 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,490 Now in any case, I'm not going to go into details 226 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:39,600 about the security matters for obvious reasons, 227 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,590 but what I will do, I'll give you-- 228 00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:50,330 I'll describe four decisions of the two elections, one in-- 229 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:54,260 three of them from the first election campaign, 230 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:58,880 and the first one of the last election campaign. 231 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:05,750 And then I'll-- after, you will hear comments from Professor 232 00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:13,790 Niva Elkin-Koren which helped me a lot to understand the new era 233 00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:23,190 of social networks and the involvement of the security 234 00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:24,470 organizations. 235 00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:26,960 And really, she is the expert in Israel. 236 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,560 So I consulted many people, but she helped 237 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,150 me a lot in those matters. 238 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:35,710 And I thank her for that. 239 00:17:35,710 --> 00:17:38,160 So she will make comments, and Professor Benkler 240 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:39,270 will make comments. 241 00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:40,740 And then it will be-- 242 00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:42,390 I'll take your questions. 243 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,040 I tell you right from the beginning 244 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,750 that I'll listen to all your questions, 245 00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:51,630 but some of the questions I am not 246 00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:53,940 sure I'll be able to answer. 247 00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:55,700 Not that I will not be able to answer, 248 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:59,160 but you can understand that. 249 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,190 If you will ask me too delicate questions, 250 00:18:02,190 --> 00:18:05,160 I apologize, but you will have to understand that I 251 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,570 can't answer those questions. 252 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:09,240 OK. 253 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,970 Now, I'm coming to the first case. 254 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:17,130 The first case was in the first election. 255 00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:20,910 256 00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:24,270 You have to understand we have a propaganda law which 257 00:18:24,270 --> 00:18:32,130 was enacted in 1959, and it covers many, many topics which 258 00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:41,700 were very innovative in '90-- in the late '50s and '60s, 259 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:46,380 but it doesn't cover at all the social networks. 260 00:18:46,380 --> 00:18:53,180 Then no one even read about the internet. 261 00:18:53,180 --> 00:18:53,680 OK. 262 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,300 So before the elections were declared, 263 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:01,410 there was an initiative in the Knesset in the parliament 264 00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:12,480 to apply the Propaganda Law of 1959 to the social networks. 265 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:24,840 Some of the parties really were willing to have this provision, 266 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,360 to pass this provision. 267 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:30,510 Some of them were neutral, but the Likud Party 268 00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:32,680 blocked the initiative. 269 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:43,170 So after the elections were declared, a lawyer and an NGO 270 00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:49,320 filed a petition to me, asking me to judicially decide 271 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:57,870 that the election, the provisions of the existing law 272 00:19:57,870 --> 00:20:00,090 will apply to social networks. 273 00:20:00,090 --> 00:20:02,970 And in the existing law, there is a provision 274 00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:07,920 saying that in the period of the elections, 275 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:13,240 no ad can be a published anonymously, 276 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,910 but you should, in every ad, in billboards, 277 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:21,090 and in the paper, newspapers, you should 278 00:20:21,090 --> 00:20:23,730 say who stands behind the ad. 279 00:20:23,730 --> 00:20:27,750 So, the petition said that I should 280 00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:39,040 apply this provision into all of the social networks. 281 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,340 Now, I made a hearing. 282 00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:47,060 And as a matter of fact, it was almost-- 283 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:52,020 I was almost ready to dismiss it because it was theoretical. 284 00:20:52,020 --> 00:20:58,940 There was no-- any actual case before me. 285 00:20:58,940 --> 00:21:05,660 But then I say sometimes that everyone has to have his luck. 286 00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:09,720 After the-- just a day after the hearing, 287 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,550 and suddenly on all billboards in Israel, 288 00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:20,460 there was an anonymous ad saying that there, in the ad, 289 00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:26,100 there were four very famous journalists with their faces 290 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:30,030 and their names saying, you, the voter have to decide. 291 00:21:30,030 --> 00:21:34,010 Who will decide for you, those four journalists or you, 292 00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:35,330 the voter? 293 00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:39,150 OK, and it was published anonymously. 294 00:21:39,150 --> 00:21:45,300 Now, the same ad was published in the social networks. 295 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:47,310 This was just the same ad. 296 00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:52,650 And then the petitioners who understood that in the hearing, 297 00:21:52,650 --> 00:22:01,700 they didn't have any hard facts to base on their petition, 298 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:08,310 they a asked to correct their original petition. 299 00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:12,930 And I decided to have another hearing. 300 00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:16,860 And in this hearing, the Likud Party said-- 301 00:22:16,860 --> 00:22:18,450 had raised two arguments. 302 00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:21,600 First of all, they said, oh, in the meanwhile, 303 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,220 the press tried to find out who stands behind the ads. 304 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:31,170 And they found it behind the ads the reporters were standing. 305 00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:34,765 And then the Likud said in the second hearing, OK, 306 00:22:34,765 --> 00:22:35,515 we made a mistake. 307 00:22:35,515 --> 00:22:37,220 It was by mistake. 308 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:38,290 It wasn't published. 309 00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:41,560 Who stands behind the ads? 310 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,020 We will leave it on the billboards 311 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:45,790 with the name of the Likud. 312 00:22:45,790 --> 00:22:50,820 But in the social networks, we will 313 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:56,230 say in the social networks, we are allowed to go anonymously. 314 00:22:56,230 --> 00:23:02,110 This time and maybe out in the future occasions as well. 315 00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:08,200 Then I heard all the arguments, and then I issued the decision 316 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,220 saying that-- 317 00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:19,900 I issued an injunction saying that this special case is 318 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:30,750 an example of the need to apply it also on social networks. 319 00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:34,950 Now I gave, as a matter of fact, basically, four arguments. 320 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:38,060 The first one was I based my decision 321 00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:44,320 on a theory or the principle of Defense of Democracy. 322 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:55,850 Then I used the technique of a purpose of interpretation. 323 00:23:55,850 --> 00:24:02,240 I found another provision that, in the '95, 324 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:08,210 '59 law that in the purpose of interpretation, 325 00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:11,660 I could apply it to such a situation. 326 00:24:11,660 --> 00:24:14,520 And then I used what is called the-- 327 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,560 we have a law that is not used so much. 328 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:24,740 It's called the law for fundamentals 329 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:27,080 of the Israeli law. 330 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,150 And it says that if there is question 331 00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:39,020 that comes before a court or in other judicial form 332 00:24:39,020 --> 00:24:41,330 and there is no answer either in law 333 00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:43,760 or in the precedent of the Supreme Court, 334 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,010 you can use either analogy. 335 00:24:46,010 --> 00:24:48,410 And if there is no analogy, you can 336 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:52,880 go to the roots of the Jewish tradition 337 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,440 and Jewish law, the ancient Jewish law. 338 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,330 So I said, OK, there is no specific law. 339 00:24:59,330 --> 00:25:04,850 There is no precedent, but the analogy here is very clear, 340 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:10,520 because it's just the same ad in the billboards 341 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:17,340 and in the social networks. 342 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:20,330 And even if you will say that there is no analogy, 343 00:25:20,330 --> 00:25:25,890 I found roots in a very creative manner. 344 00:25:25,890 --> 00:25:30,990 I found roots in the Jewish, ancient Jewish law. 345 00:25:30,990 --> 00:25:37,500 And so, I covered myself serve in all alternatives. 346 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:44,450 And I did it because I was afraid that the Likud will try 347 00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:49,310 to attack my decision in the Supreme Court sitting as High 348 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:52,200 Court of Justice, but they didn't. 349 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,380 And then, so we had a decision that 350 00:25:57,380 --> 00:26:00,500 was binding on all the parties. 351 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,380 And then my friends in the academia said, OK. 352 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:07,400 It's a very sophisticated and very nice decision, 353 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,400 but you not be able to go to implement it. 354 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,770 What they didn't know, that in parliament, 355 00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:16,520 in my administrative capacity, I spoke. 356 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,850 Or OK, they asked me to say that they spoke with him, 357 00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:23,600 but as a matter of fact, I negotiated with Facebook. 358 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:30,350 And I told them that in such cases they should do something. 359 00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:33,230 And the reason for them to do something 360 00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:36,740 is their declaration to the US Congress 361 00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:49,320 that they will apply, let's say, new techniques 362 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,740 after what happened with Cambridge Analytica. 363 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:56,190 So, I called them for a meeting, and I 364 00:26:56,190 --> 00:26:58,860 asked them to show me what they would 365 00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:02,790 apply not just in the United States, but all over the world. 366 00:27:02,790 --> 00:27:04,800 So I called them for a meeting. 367 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,930 They came over from the United States, 368 00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:11,730 very high ranking officials of Facebook. 369 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:16,620 And then at the beginning, they were very polite, 370 00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:19,030 but not responsive. 371 00:27:19,030 --> 00:27:24,860 And then I told them that there is another alternative, 372 00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:27,633 that if such a case would arise, well, 373 00:27:27,633 --> 00:27:30,530 we will go by the legal path. 374 00:27:30,530 --> 00:27:35,520 And I don't know whether it's advisable from their point 375 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:36,580 of view. 376 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:37,080 OK. 377 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,330 So they took another-- 378 00:27:39,330 --> 00:27:44,190 they asked for several days to think it over. 379 00:27:44,190 --> 00:27:48,450 And then they came with a proposed solution, 380 00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:54,770 saying that they are willing to apply their procedure of notice 381 00:27:54,770 --> 00:27:57,900 and fade out on such matters. 382 00:27:57,900 --> 00:27:59,880 And then I said, OK. 383 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,770 I really appreciate your declaration, 384 00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:06,840 but it's not enough. 385 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,130 Why it's not enough? 386 00:28:08,130 --> 00:28:11,520 What will happen if someone will give a notice 387 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,580 and you will not decide to take it down? 388 00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:18,840 So, they asked me, OK, what do you ask us for? 389 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:24,540 So, I said, if such a person or party will 390 00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:27,450 use the procedure of notice and take down 391 00:28:27,450 --> 00:28:30,180 and you would refuse to take it down, 392 00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:37,380 then he can make a petition to our committee to me. 393 00:28:37,380 --> 00:28:39,660 And if I will issue an injunction, 394 00:28:39,660 --> 00:28:43,680 you will have to adhere to it. 395 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,390 Took another several days, and then they said, OK, we agree. 396 00:28:48,390 --> 00:28:52,680 And from then on, I must tell you 397 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,350 that at the beginning, as I told you, 398 00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:57,180 they were not so responsive. 399 00:28:57,180 --> 00:29:01,920 But after those two weeks, they called it tops. 400 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,250 And after that, again, it's not an agreement, 401 00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:07,020 but understanding. 402 00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:08,670 It went very well. 403 00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:12,630 And you have to understand that after their decision 404 00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:23,540 and the procedure of notice and take down and, in some cases, 405 00:29:23,540 --> 00:29:28,520 appeal that was before me, about 70% 406 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:36,530 of the anonymous material in the networks went down. 407 00:29:36,530 --> 00:29:42,880 Here, I have to emphasize another point. 408 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,240 Our security organizations allowed 409 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,320 me to put in the decision a provision saying 410 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,070 that it will be much easier for them to monitor 411 00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:59,140 the possibility of foreign interference 412 00:29:59,140 --> 00:30:08,620 if a local party will use anonymous advertisement 413 00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:12,670 or any anonymous publication. 414 00:30:12,670 --> 00:30:17,410 So, I put it in with their permission in the decision. 415 00:30:17,410 --> 00:30:23,360 And, as I tell you, it was a success because then we-- 416 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,230 only security organizations could 417 00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:31,210 be with each other, the other 30%, 418 00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:39,430 and with some of the local parties or local initiatives 419 00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:43,190 where they didn't adhere to the decision, 420 00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:47,990 but the map made it much, much easier. 421 00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:54,320 After I spoke with Facebook, I went to Google, 422 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,310 and I went to Twitter, and I made this. 423 00:30:59,310 --> 00:31:04,520 I came to a similar understanding 424 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,410 with them as well. 425 00:31:06,410 --> 00:31:10,860 So we covered most of the social networks. 426 00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:16,800 Not all of them, but most of them, and the major ones. 427 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,520 So that was the first decision that I 428 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,730 wanted to describe to you. 429 00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:26,750 Then, just afterwards, we heard another petition. 430 00:31:26,750 --> 00:31:29,780 You know the prominent-- and again, here I 431 00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:33,110 want to add something to be students 432 00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:42,830 who are familiar with US legal work on those letters. 433 00:31:42,830 --> 00:31:51,650 I didn't know at that time that is a very similar idea was 434 00:31:51,650 --> 00:31:56,270 introduced by the late Senator John McCain 435 00:31:56,270 --> 00:32:04,130 in what is known as the Honest Ads Act. 436 00:32:04,130 --> 00:32:07,760 But it, again, it didn't become. 437 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,780 It just was just a proposal. 438 00:32:09,780 --> 00:32:13,110 He made the proposal was to other senators. 439 00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:17,090 And at that time, I thought that I invented something. 440 00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:22,640 But then I didn't know that such a thing was being 441 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,010 proposed in the United States. 442 00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:29,720 Afterwards, I read the book of Professor Franklin, 443 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,200 and he mentioned that there. 444 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,670 So I said I saw that I wasn't the first one in the world 445 00:32:34,670 --> 00:32:37,430 to think about such an idea. 446 00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:43,880 But still, I was the first one to issue such an injunction, 447 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:51,860 because, again, the law of the act that the late Senator John 448 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:57,370 McCain proposed didn't become a law in the United States. 449 00:32:57,370 --> 00:32:59,970 OK, now I'm coming to the second case. 450 00:32:59,970 --> 00:33:05,660 The second case came for me just after the first one. 451 00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:09,110 And the facts were like that. 452 00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:12,360 453 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,410 One of the parties, a small party-- 454 00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:19,000 then it was a small party, they [INAUDIBLE] the table. 455 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,090 Then it was a small party. 456 00:33:21,090 --> 00:33:25,680 They said that over the cellular phones, 457 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,290 a report is being distributed, and you 458 00:33:31,290 --> 00:33:33,120 have to understand regularly, polls 459 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:40,590 are being distributed to 1000 or 2000 people who have to answer 460 00:33:40,590 --> 00:33:43,020 or are being asked to answer. 461 00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:48,360 In this case, about 50,000, 40,000, 50,000 people 462 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:56,310 go to the proposed or the poll, which was anonymous. 463 00:33:56,310 --> 00:34:02,280 And the main thing was it was anonymous. 464 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:09,540 And in the possibilities to answer if there were a report, 465 00:34:09,540 --> 00:34:14,560 this party that swelled the table was not included. 466 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:21,690 And then they said, first of all, it's, first of all, 467 00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:25,350 it is against your decision because it is anonymous. 468 00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:32,610 Secondly, the idea to send it to 40,000 or 50,000 people, 469 00:34:32,610 --> 00:34:36,040 the idea, the main idea is to-- 470 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:43,290 it was targeted to people who the initiative was targeted 471 00:34:43,290 --> 00:34:46,409 to those people who thought whether to vote 472 00:34:46,409 --> 00:34:48,270 for we celebrate it or not. 473 00:34:48,270 --> 00:34:54,120 And once, not including this party in the poll 474 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,140 gives a hint as if they were not passed 475 00:34:58,140 --> 00:35:07,260 the threshold of 3.25% of the vote, which give you the chance 476 00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,620 to go into the parliament. 477 00:35:09,620 --> 00:35:10,120 OK. 478 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,760 I issued immediately, immediately an injunction. 479 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,620 But then you he will begin to say it's not enough. 480 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:23,520 We want to know who's stand who's stood beyond this poll? 481 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,070 And I made another hearing. 482 00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:27,690 And then, you have to understand, 483 00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:29,640 it was with cellular companies. 484 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,580 And according to the cellular companies, 485 00:35:33,580 --> 00:35:35,070 you should have license. 486 00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:40,770 And they are not allowed to permit anonymous-- 487 00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:47,160 according to the license, distribution of messages. 488 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:54,030 So, and if they breach or infringe this provision 489 00:35:54,030 --> 00:35:57,330 in the license, they could lose their license, 490 00:35:57,330 --> 00:35:59,370 but that is not enough. 491 00:35:59,370 --> 00:36:03,330 If they act according to the license, 492 00:36:03,330 --> 00:36:07,380 they have an immunity which is similar to paragraph 493 00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:14,410 230 of the American Communication Decency Act. 494 00:36:14,410 --> 00:36:23,370 So, I told them, you should tell us who stood beyond the port. 495 00:36:23,370 --> 00:36:27,210 And then they understood that they might lose their license, 496 00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:31,140 and they might lose the very immunity. 497 00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:32,310 So, they said, OK. 498 00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:35,190 We are willing to disclose. 499 00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:41,160 They asked the one that has initiated it. 500 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,190 And he said, OK. 501 00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:50,740 I don't have any way not to disclose it. 502 00:36:50,740 --> 00:36:51,810 And he gave-- 503 00:36:51,810 --> 00:36:56,190 I don't know why, but he gave his acceptance 504 00:36:56,190 --> 00:36:57,790 to the disclosure. 505 00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:02,220 But then, probably that was the reason it was the first use. 506 00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:06,330 As a matter of fact, it took another two tears 507 00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:12,190 to come to the rate of the original [INAUDIBLE].. 508 00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:15,960 And at the end of the day, you wouldn't 509 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,950 believe who was standing before up behind this message 510 00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:23,460 and the port. 511 00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:30,660 It was one of the parties that I don't want to comment on that, 512 00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:33,720 but it was one of the parties that really, 513 00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:39,870 their claim to fame is they're the cleanest way 514 00:37:39,870 --> 00:37:42,990 of doing politics. 515 00:37:42,990 --> 00:37:44,560 And that was the fact. 516 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,060 OK. 517 00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:48,190 So that was the second case. 518 00:37:48,190 --> 00:37:50,310 The third case was-- 519 00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:50,850 never mind. 520 00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:54,410 Afterwards, I'll tell you, because you're so interested. 521 00:37:54,410 --> 00:37:58,410 It is great you are interested, but that was the case. 522 00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:04,890 The third case came before me after a joint venture 523 00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:13,670 between the New York Times and the most popular newspaper 524 00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:15,810 in Isreal, Yedioth Ahronoth. 525 00:38:15,810 --> 00:38:30,180 And it was a piece of a investigatory journalist 526 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:31,560 investigation. 527 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:39,660 And they said that the Likud is behind a NetBot. 528 00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:45,840 and it's the whole investigation of the whole article was 529 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,570 called "The Big Bot Network." 530 00:38:51,570 --> 00:38:52,500 OK. 531 00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:56,370 As a matter of fact, it wasn't-- 532 00:38:56,370 --> 00:39:00,390 by the way, it wasn't bought at all. 533 00:39:00,390 --> 00:39:08,550 It was, how do you call it, a sock puppet, a sock puppet. 534 00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:09,210 OK. 535 00:39:09,210 --> 00:39:14,010 That is the way really well people who 536 00:39:14,010 --> 00:39:16,560 didn't disclose their names. 537 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,510 And immediately after the publication of that piece 538 00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:26,750 in the papers, one of the big parties, 539 00:39:26,750 --> 00:39:28,860 [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] which today, 540 00:39:28,860 --> 00:39:35,370 their leader got the formal mandate to try to form 541 00:39:35,370 --> 00:39:36,720 a government. 542 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:41,950 They filed a petition without adding anything 543 00:39:41,950 --> 00:39:47,530 to what was in the paper but, just giving me the article 544 00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:56,500 and asking me to issue an injunction because it was-- 545 00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:01,860 they had two claims visible because it was an anonymous-- 546 00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:05,260 the network was anonymous in a way. 547 00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:09,280 And they claimed that there was a conspiracy. 548 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:15,490 Here, they didn't add anything to what was in the papers. 549 00:40:15,490 --> 00:40:22,060 And beside that, to basic a legal action 550 00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:26,630 on what is written in the papers is also a problem. 551 00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:31,060 So in that case, I decided in favor of the Likud, 552 00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:39,400 saying that they couldn't-- they didn't establish a conspiracy. 553 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:45,790 And that is very similar to what a justice-- 554 00:40:45,790 --> 00:40:51,310 not justice-- the Mueller Report said 555 00:40:51,310 --> 00:40:53,580 about what happened in the United States, 556 00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:58,480 that no conspiracy had been proven in the level that 557 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,770 is needed for a legal action. 558 00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:11,790 However, I quoted a verse from the Prophet Amos 559 00:41:11,790 --> 00:41:16,510 say, came to walk together, except they agreed. 560 00:41:16,510 --> 00:41:17,740 We agreed. 561 00:41:17,740 --> 00:41:21,430 And had a [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. 562 00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:26,070 But still, they couldn't prove more than they-- 563 00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:28,210 they couldn't prove what they claimed, 564 00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:30,250 so I dismissed the case. 565 00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:37,360 The forced decision was in the last elections. 566 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,615 And here, there was the-- 567 00:41:40,615 --> 00:41:43,830 568 00:41:43,830 --> 00:41:47,500 we have a provision in the existing law saying 569 00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:51,370 that in the last three days before the elections, 570 00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:59,020 no polls should be published in any media and by any party. 571 00:41:59,020 --> 00:42:03,910 Now, the court and that Prime Minister Netanyahu, 572 00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:07,410 they used chatbot. 573 00:42:07,410 --> 00:42:11,150 And in this chatbot-- 574 00:42:11,150 --> 00:42:18,450 the chatbot was activated by Facebook Messenger. 575 00:42:18,450 --> 00:42:22,860 And in those, it was within the three days. 576 00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:28,070 And they published in this chatbot 577 00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:34,230 a poem saying that the Likud is going to lose the elections, 578 00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:39,420 and the liberals, and the leftists as they coordinate 579 00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:40,710 are going to win. 580 00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:45,820 So they called all Likud supporters to go in to vote. 581 00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:59,010 Now, they put in the bot the poll that they wanted everybody 582 00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:00,020 to see. 583 00:43:00,020 --> 00:43:02,490 And it was within those three days. 584 00:43:02,490 --> 00:43:08,070 So a day before the elections, a petition was filed to me, 585 00:43:08,070 --> 00:43:12,560 and I gave it the night at 10 o'clock PM 586 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:19,140 and interlock-- in a term injunction telling them 587 00:43:19,140 --> 00:43:28,560 that they should take down this publication up to seven o'clock 588 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,300 in the morning on the day of the election. 589 00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:35,940 And I issued the injunction against the Likud 590 00:43:35,940 --> 00:43:38,160 and against Facebook. 591 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,510 Then, due to the fact that we got 592 00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:45,420 after what I described before, good connections 593 00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:48,180 with Facebook, Facebook called my legal department 594 00:43:48,180 --> 00:43:50,880 saying that they think that there 595 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,770 was a mistake, that issued the injunction against them as 596 00:43:55,770 --> 00:43:57,000 well. 597 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,820 And then I told my legal department 598 00:44:02,820 --> 00:44:05,460 that if they have any problem, they 599 00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:09,270 should file a petition to me. 600 00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:13,860 I'm not going to speak with them informally on this matter. 601 00:44:13,860 --> 00:44:19,320 So in the morning, they filed a petition 602 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:26,430 asking me to correct the decision, 603 00:44:26,430 --> 00:44:29,530 saying that it was probably-- 604 00:44:29,530 --> 00:44:32,780 I issued the injunction against them by mistake. 605 00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:39,520 Besides that, the Likud have issued a response, 606 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,230 and they have raised two arguments. 607 00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:47,520 One was that it's not a poll, it's a fake poll. 608 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,570 So if it's a fake poll, it's not a poll. 609 00:44:51,570 --> 00:45:01,290 And the second argument was that they are willing-- 610 00:45:01,290 --> 00:45:04,770 they understand that if the first argument will not 611 00:45:04,770 --> 00:45:10,620 be accepted, they are willing to pay a fine according 612 00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:13,080 to contempt of court. 613 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:21,930 But they're willing to pay fine, and even a very huge fine. 614 00:45:21,930 --> 00:45:23,280 OK. 615 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:34,110 And then, I-- while still the injunction was in force, 616 00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:40,050 and then while I was considering writing the-- 617 00:45:40,050 --> 00:45:43,120 it was, and you have to understand, in the election 618 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,370 day, while I was writing the decision, 619 00:45:47,370 --> 00:46:03,130 suddenly the representative of the Likud in the election 620 00:46:03,130 --> 00:46:10,190 committee came over and said, "We have an idea." 621 00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:15,290 And then I said, OK, you have to again. 622 00:46:15,290 --> 00:46:17,450 You have to put it out. 623 00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:21,720 And then Facebook came to me as well. 624 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:25,490 And they said that the prime minister and the Likud 625 00:46:25,490 --> 00:46:28,280 are saying that they are willing to take it down, 626 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,970 but there is a problem. 627 00:46:29,970 --> 00:46:35,980 They cannot differ between the illegal publication of the poll 628 00:46:35,980 --> 00:46:41,540 to the legal matter that is allowed to be published 629 00:46:41,540 --> 00:46:45,690 on the project. 630 00:46:45,690 --> 00:46:49,790 So I said, if that is the case, just 631 00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:55,670 take down the whole project. 632 00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:58,800 And then I asked the Facebook if they 633 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,700 are willing to get the decision or they 634 00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:12,710 want to withdraw their petition to change my decision. 635 00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:14,630 And then they said, OK. 636 00:47:14,630 --> 00:47:21,740 Now, we will do it by our initiative. 637 00:47:21,740 --> 00:47:25,070 And then, suddenly, the Likud found a way 638 00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:32,680 to differ between the poles and the legal published 639 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,506 and the other material. 640 00:47:35,506 --> 00:47:41,380 In the meanwhile, the bot was down for three hours. 641 00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:46,560 And then, when the Likud made the undertaking 642 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,310 that they will differ, and they will take out 643 00:47:51,310 --> 00:47:57,940 the poll out of their chart, then the prime minister 644 00:47:57,940 --> 00:48:02,050 made an interview saying that he doesn't understand 645 00:48:02,050 --> 00:48:04,210 why I've decided, because I decided 646 00:48:04,210 --> 00:48:06,670 because he was willing to pay a very 647 00:48:06,670 --> 00:48:10,750 high fine in a contemptible of court, 648 00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:22,840 and how I dare to put it their bot down 649 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,900 in the day of the elections. 650 00:48:25,900 --> 00:48:29,480 And so then, it wasn't allowed to make any interview 651 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,610 of the day, of the election. 652 00:48:31,610 --> 00:48:34,720 So I said, now you have to hear another provision, 653 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:36,610 a new undertaking that you will not 654 00:48:36,610 --> 00:48:39,370 make any interviews anymore. 655 00:48:39,370 --> 00:48:41,230 And they accepted. 656 00:48:41,230 --> 00:48:50,040 And then I was really to allow them to put the body up again. 657 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,770 But then Facebook said, OK, we have 658 00:48:53,770 --> 00:48:55,960 to get directions from the United States 659 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,210 whether to put it up again. 660 00:48:58,210 --> 00:49:02,440 So it took another hour, and then they came to me 661 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,350 and asked for a formal decision. 662 00:49:04,350 --> 00:49:07,810 They give a formal decision, and then the vote went up, 663 00:49:07,810 --> 00:49:10,810 and there were no more interviews and no more posts. 664 00:49:10,810 --> 00:49:14,250 665 00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:17,250 Those are the four decisions that O 666 00:49:17,250 --> 00:49:19,600 wanted to describe to you. 667 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:26,010 And I want to say at the end, before opening to comments 668 00:49:26,010 --> 00:49:35,740 and questions, that as you see in this case, in those matters, 669 00:49:35,740 --> 00:49:39,940 the light onto the nations came from the chosen. 670 00:49:39,940 --> 00:49:40,440 Thank you. 671 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:46,330 [APPLAUSE] 672 00:49:46,330 --> 00:49:47,630 So, thank you so much. 673 00:49:47,630 --> 00:49:49,830 Thank you so much. 674 00:49:49,830 --> 00:50:00,260 As he now comes up and is preparing to speak, 675 00:50:00,260 --> 00:50:04,760 just in case you didn't notice through the extremely mild 676 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,400 manner with which the justice presented, 677 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,620 he described the situation where he pushed back and forth 678 00:50:12,620 --> 00:50:17,050 between his administrative capacity and judicial capacity 679 00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:22,840 to reach an accommodation with Facebook, and then Google, 680 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,220 and Twitter to do informal one order implementation of order, 681 00:50:27,220 --> 00:50:29,060 essentially of order. 682 00:50:29,060 --> 00:50:35,020 He's threatened to take away immunity from the cell 683 00:50:35,020 --> 00:50:39,520 companies if they didn't reveal enough to allow [INAUDIBLE] 684 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,020 against the individual. 685 00:50:41,020 --> 00:50:44,590 And they ended up enjoining the sitting prime minister 686 00:50:44,590 --> 00:50:47,470 from using a chatbot over Facebook Messenger 687 00:50:47,470 --> 00:50:48,190 and target them. 688 00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:51,670 So there's a-- each of these three 689 00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:54,340 could occupy a seminar of controversial relations 690 00:50:54,340 --> 00:50:56,770 between private and public, between 691 00:50:56,770 --> 00:50:58,360 judicial and administrative. 692 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,470 Let's not forget them. 693 00:51:00,470 --> 00:51:02,440 And Niva, let's hear from you more 694 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,870 about what we are learning from this election system. 695 00:51:06,870 --> 00:51:13,730 So we're learning about the virtues of law, 696 00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:19,510 but also, what could happen in the shadow of law. 697 00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:24,860 And I think that this is a story about what is happening with 698 00:51:24,860 --> 00:51:30,510 the law when the politicians, the legislators cannot regulate 699 00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:33,070 politics and elections before they're involved 700 00:51:33,070 --> 00:51:34,800 and they're engaged in it. 701 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,820 And I think that the question for me-- 702 00:51:38,820 --> 00:51:42,210 I think that should be the question for us is what does it 703 00:51:42,210 --> 00:51:45,690 take to save our democracy and our elections 704 00:51:45,690 --> 00:51:49,070 when politicians are not functioning? 705 00:51:49,070 --> 00:51:51,570 And I would say that it takes a village, 706 00:51:51,570 --> 00:51:54,830 and the is made of the judiciary, 707 00:51:54,830 --> 00:51:58,130 and the social media, and the media, and civil society. 708 00:51:58,130 --> 00:52:00,690 And our elected do, just to show you 709 00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:05,150 that very briefly by going back to the stories 710 00:52:05,150 --> 00:52:08,170 that we heard about, and just flesh out 711 00:52:08,170 --> 00:52:10,890 some of the reflections of each of the players 712 00:52:10,890 --> 00:52:12,810 in each of these stories, or facing 713 00:52:12,810 --> 00:52:16,170 three stories, three of the stories that we first heard. 714 00:52:16,170 --> 00:52:21,365 So in the first one, it took [INAUDIBLE] 715 00:52:21,365 --> 00:52:24,520 justice to make this decision that 716 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,420 would apply the law of the elections 717 00:52:29,420 --> 00:52:32,710 through the social media, or maybe not. 718 00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:36,840 But then it also took some work from the civil society, 719 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,420 the media, and also social media. 720 00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:43,030 So we've heard about the corporation by social media 721 00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:45,255 that they undertook upon themselves to collaborate 722 00:52:45,255 --> 00:52:47,745 and to take down. 723 00:52:47,745 --> 00:52:49,920 But the other claims were as well. 724 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,140 So one of the players were the civil society. 725 00:52:53,140 --> 00:52:56,780 So we had groups of people working 726 00:52:56,780 --> 00:53:02,320 with a great coalition of NGOs that were actually 727 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,520 looking for a [INAUDIBLE]. 728 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,720 They called them the Public Support Laws, 729 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:12,130 supporting them, tracking them, going through social media, 730 00:53:12,130 --> 00:53:15,520 and asking social media to take them down. 731 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,720 Some of these bots were actually bots. 732 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:26,510 Some, we've heard, were actually real people. 733 00:53:26,510 --> 00:53:31,840 And what is amazing here is that you would think [INAUDIBLE] 734 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,246 that this was important [INAUDIBLE].. 735 00:53:34,246 --> 00:53:37,690 It is a newspaper [INAUDIBLE] just, 736 00:53:37,690 --> 00:53:41,696 but this person, [INAUDIBLE] would 737 00:53:41,696 --> 00:53:44,680 turn to be a real person when it actually 738 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:49,010 was a cabinet minister that actually turned 739 00:53:49,010 --> 00:53:55,950 this story into a story of success for the Likud Party 740 00:53:55,950 --> 00:54:01,130 where Netanyahu was actually turning it into a spin. 741 00:54:01,130 --> 00:54:04,890 And on party lines, that the election day is the boss. 742 00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:08,130 We, the party, generally the common party, 743 00:54:08,130 --> 00:54:10,800 will go to poll to vote. 744 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,310 745 00:54:14,310 --> 00:54:16,728 And we're all boss. 746 00:54:16,728 --> 00:54:21,720 We are all going to vote and actually elect the right party. 747 00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:25,630 So it's not only about what you do on social media, 748 00:54:25,630 --> 00:54:31,670 but actually how you turn these stories sometimes 749 00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:32,890 in your favor. 750 00:54:32,890 --> 00:54:38,470 So this was not the success story for a civil society 751 00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:43,270 or for journalists or investigative journalists, 752 00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:45,640 journalists that were doing this story. 753 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:50,030 But in retrospect, I think that we were done like post-mortem 754 00:54:50,030 --> 00:54:51,680 for this and we're looking at what 755 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,225 had happened between the Israeli society 756 00:54:56,225 --> 00:54:57,350 during the first elections. 757 00:54:57,350 --> 00:55:02,420 And I think that this is one lesson that we had that, even 758 00:55:02,420 --> 00:55:05,850 though once there was a spin. 759 00:55:05,850 --> 00:55:10,090 There was no success in terms of identifying what. 760 00:55:10,090 --> 00:55:13,490 But the bigger picture was that we 761 00:55:13,490 --> 00:55:19,220 have gained some digital literacy and the ability 762 00:55:19,220 --> 00:55:26,440 of the awareness of people over some of the dangers 763 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,420 that you are facing in social media. 764 00:55:30,420 --> 00:55:35,030 So when my 85 years old mother said to me, 765 00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:36,530 "I've seen this on social media. 766 00:55:36,530 --> 00:55:37,936 Is this a bot?" 767 00:55:37,936 --> 00:55:39,750 So I just though, oh, this is great. 768 00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:43,190 This is a great success, and maybe this 769 00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:47,900 is something to be gained from that. 770 00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:51,840 Second round of the elections. 771 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,040 We had a story that did actually be knocking 772 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,300 both with the judiciary. 773 00:55:57,300 --> 00:56:01,970 So we had social media civil society and the media. 774 00:56:01,970 --> 00:56:09,260 When our prime minister actually looked forward to hate, 775 00:56:09,260 --> 00:56:15,650 sharing hate speech online, and his checkbook was actually 776 00:56:15,650 --> 00:56:22,280 blocked by Facebook because this was a violation of Facebook 777 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:23,730 community guidelines. 778 00:56:23,730 --> 00:56:27,290 And that's an interesting story that actually did not 779 00:56:27,290 --> 00:56:31,520 involve the judiciary, but involved 780 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,130 other courageous people in civil society. 781 00:56:34,130 --> 00:56:36,890 So here you had those of you interested in history, 782 00:56:36,890 --> 00:56:38,330 and it's documented here. 783 00:56:38,330 --> 00:56:44,740 You can just-- this is 10 pages. 784 00:56:44,740 --> 00:56:47,900 They're gradually describing-- but he was actually describing 785 00:56:47,900 --> 00:56:49,600 what was happening here. 786 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,080 But here you had an activist lawyer and an activist 787 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,200 as we know as a scholar. 788 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,470 And [INAUDIBLE] was actually studying the way 789 00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:07,210 in which the bot, the chatbot was actually working online 790 00:57:07,210 --> 00:57:10,450 and that it was doing something that was really interesting. 791 00:57:10,450 --> 00:57:14,180 And so, taking the vote resolutes that you 792 00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:16,690 get from election's activity. 793 00:57:16,690 --> 00:57:20,500 All the parties get voter's lists. 794 00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,710 Using social media, in this case, Facebook, 795 00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:27,560 through advertisements in order to classify 796 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:33,710 that group of the list of the voters to those who are for us 797 00:57:33,710 --> 00:57:37,420 and those who are against us, who is going to vote for us. 798 00:57:37,420 --> 00:57:41,160 So the chatbot would do some games in the beginning 799 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,030 and then engage people in a lot of activities. 800 00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:46,140 And at one point, would ask, are you 801 00:57:46,140 --> 00:57:50,920 going to vote for me, the prime minister, 802 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,470 and so enabling this type of classification, 803 00:57:55,470 --> 00:57:57,465 and then using the chatbot in order 804 00:57:57,465 --> 00:58:02,640 to activate the group of supporters 805 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:10,060 and actually recruiting them to engage more and more people 806 00:58:10,060 --> 00:58:13,320 in this type of debate. 807 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:18,520 This was something that was happening using the messenger, 808 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:24,130 but the social side that was using a lot of fake accounts 809 00:58:24,130 --> 00:58:27,190 in order to document this type of activity 810 00:58:27,190 --> 00:58:30,780 managed to pretend to be an activist that is loyal, 811 00:58:30,780 --> 00:58:32,140 that is supporting. 812 00:58:32,140 --> 00:58:36,670 But a it could, a party, and therefore, 813 00:58:36,670 --> 00:58:43,330 receive that hate speech from the chatbot. 814 00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:46,540 The hate speech was not great, and it was not 815 00:58:46,540 --> 00:58:49,080 announced by the media. 816 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:50,970 It was not announced on television. 817 00:58:50,970 --> 00:58:53,230 It was only communicated through the messenger 818 00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:56,500 of the people who were loyal, right, and received 819 00:58:56,500 --> 00:58:57,075 that message. 820 00:58:57,075 --> 00:59:00,070 821 00:59:00,070 --> 00:59:03,340 This was leaked to the media, public media. 822 00:59:03,340 --> 00:59:05,270 The media reported it. 823 00:59:05,270 --> 00:59:07,730 And only after it was reported by the media, 824 00:59:07,730 --> 00:59:12,220 so it made its own awareness in the general public. 825 00:59:12,220 --> 00:59:14,440 Facebook took action against this 826 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,040 and actually blocked the chatbot for the first time 827 00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,690 for six hours. 828 00:59:19,690 --> 00:59:26,290 So this is a story that involved social media, civil society, 829 00:59:26,290 --> 00:59:34,880 the mass media, but no judiciary intervention. 830 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:36,790 Te third story that we've heard about 831 00:59:36,790 --> 00:59:38,230 is actually quite remarkable. 832 00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:38,730 Right? 833 00:59:38,730 --> 00:59:45,280 I mean, this is a prime minister of a country 834 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:50,680 and the chatbot is being blocked on election day by a company. 835 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,670 And this is a chatbot that is actually 836 00:59:54,670 --> 01:00:01,190 being used the most intensively on election day 837 01:00:01,190 --> 01:00:11,090 in order to man some of the activities on the ground 838 01:00:11,090 --> 01:00:12,580 during a very critical time 839 01:00:12,580 --> 01:00:16,850 And here, as we've heard, we actually had, 840 01:00:16,850 --> 01:00:19,820 again, and we had, of course, the judiciary, but also 841 01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:24,860 some action by the civil society, social media, 842 01:00:24,860 --> 01:00:26,220 and the media. 843 01:00:26,220 --> 01:00:32,180 And the reason is that, again, these type of polls 844 01:00:32,180 --> 01:00:36,710 only showed up, only the legal polls only showed up 845 01:00:36,710 --> 01:00:43,910 on the messenger communicating the polls this select group 846 01:00:43,910 --> 01:00:47,840 that was the loyal-- the [INAUDIBLE] loyal group, 847 01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:56,700 and showed up on the screen of the researcher that was holding 848 01:00:56,700 --> 01:01:01,610 all these fake accounts and was collecting this information. 849 01:01:01,610 --> 01:01:06,520 The petition was brought in by the activist lawyer. 850 01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:11,730 And this was-- and it took the creative innovation 851 01:01:11,730 --> 01:01:13,930 of both of these players in order 852 01:01:13,930 --> 01:01:17,260 to come up with this order. 853 01:01:17,260 --> 01:01:21,720 But this was also received in a political [INAUDIBLE] 854 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,080 by the prime minister or the-- 855 01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:32,800 and his supporters as a form of stealing the elections, right, 856 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:40,860 and trying to circumvent the fair play by actually 857 01:01:40,860 --> 01:01:44,220 taking an extreme action. 858 01:01:44,220 --> 01:01:48,770 So, the last thing that I wanted to mention 859 01:01:48,770 --> 01:01:52,810 before I go break into my takeaways from this 860 01:01:52,810 --> 01:01:55,585 is that the use of the messenger, I think, 861 01:01:55,585 --> 01:01:58,900 is something that is really important 862 01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:02,080 and is really different from the type of misinformation 863 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,980 that we've seen in the 2016 election. 864 01:02:05,980 --> 01:02:13,170 And that is something that is really taking us 865 01:02:13,170 --> 01:02:16,390 beyond misinformation and disinformation 866 01:02:16,390 --> 01:02:20,982 and to creating a new way of governing 867 01:02:20,982 --> 01:02:28,890 and communicating with people in a secretive way that is not 868 01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:30,280 open to the public. 869 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,340 So if we were talking about-- 870 01:02:32,340 --> 01:02:35,310 we normally talked about the public ordering 871 01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:36,770 on the one side, right? 872 01:02:36,770 --> 01:02:38,670 The governments are actually working 873 01:02:38,670 --> 01:02:41,450 as government or private ordering, 874 01:02:41,450 --> 01:02:44,100 going to do something that the type of governance that 875 01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:46,950 is being done by companies. 876 01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:52,370 Here, we start to think about some sort of mass personalized 877 01:02:52,370 --> 01:02:54,750 ordering, and that is the ability 878 01:02:54,750 --> 01:02:57,560 to activate people without a lot of people, 879 01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,910 like a lot of crowds. 880 01:02:59,910 --> 01:03:03,660 But to do that directly with each them individually, 881 01:03:03,660 --> 01:03:09,970 so we don't know, but we all get these directives or orders. 882 01:03:09,970 --> 01:03:12,930 And again, those of you who are interested in that, 883 01:03:12,930 --> 01:03:17,790 those stories posted online how the messenger 884 01:03:17,790 --> 01:03:22,140 was working with, I guess, orders it was giving, 885 01:03:22,140 --> 01:03:24,140 and these were like, yeah, the prime minister. 886 01:03:24,140 --> 01:03:25,212 I'm ready. 887 01:03:25,212 --> 01:03:27,170 That was above and that didn't happen until you 888 01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:30,560 push whenever you got a new-- 889 01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,820 if you wanted to get your assignment. 890 01:03:32,820 --> 01:03:35,360 So what are the takeaways? 891 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:41,880 Civil society, the attitude to regain our democracy 892 01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:43,890 or protect our democracy requires 893 01:03:43,890 --> 01:03:46,370 some courageous activists, but also, 894 01:03:46,370 --> 01:03:50,080 some innovative methodology, such as methodologies 895 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,940 that would tinker with the things that 896 01:03:52,940 --> 01:03:59,300 are being done by politicians using social media. 897 01:03:59,300 --> 01:04:03,650 And also, lawyers that would actually 898 01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:06,830 as the undertakers, petitions, and lawsuits, 899 01:04:06,830 --> 01:04:10,780 and bring it to court. 900 01:04:10,780 --> 01:04:16,790 It does take the involvement of the general media, mass media. 901 01:04:16,790 --> 01:04:19,450 Things that were kept secret, for instance, 902 01:04:19,450 --> 01:04:23,510 the hate speech that was communicated in the messenger 903 01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:28,235 did not get any attention before the media actually published 904 01:04:28,235 --> 01:04:30,950 that and created a lot of pressure 905 01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:36,470 on Facebook that eventually 48 hours after it was posted 906 01:04:36,470 --> 01:04:40,180 blocked the chatbot in the case that it did not 907 01:04:40,180 --> 01:04:42,850 involve the judiciary. 908 01:04:42,850 --> 01:04:46,660 And of course, it requires a courageous judiciary 909 01:04:46,660 --> 01:04:51,910 that would use doctrine such as the defense of democracy 910 01:04:51,910 --> 01:05:03,050 to expand some of the laws that can applied to mass media. 911 01:05:03,050 --> 01:05:07,150 And it's then that also the social media, 912 01:05:07,150 --> 01:05:10,070 thereby, creating a new regime. 913 01:05:10,070 --> 01:05:13,870 But I think that this is something that could also 914 01:05:13,870 --> 01:05:19,090 be dangerous in the sense that as those 915 01:05:19,090 --> 01:05:22,740 of us in the middle liberal democracy 916 01:05:22,740 --> 01:05:26,130 are facing a constitutional crisis anywhere, right? 917 01:05:26,130 --> 01:05:28,750 I mean, it's like all of us are reading the newspapers 918 01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:34,005 and we see a constitutional crisis in the United Kingdom, 919 01:05:34,005 --> 01:05:35,560 in the United States. 920 01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,340 We also have our own part of this in Israel. 921 01:05:39,340 --> 01:05:42,110 This is a heavy burden on the judiciary. 922 01:05:42,110 --> 01:05:46,160 The judiciary cannot save us to the degree that we disagree 923 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,230 on very fundamental issues. 924 01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:50,160 So to our activity and innovation 925 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,600 is good enough in order to use an existing law 926 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,510 and to send it to social media, but then someone 927 01:05:56,510 --> 01:05:59,630 has to work out the details of how it works, right? 928 01:05:59,630 --> 01:06:04,010 When do you remove things that are not in the [INAUDIBLE].. 929 01:06:04,010 --> 01:06:05,632 And so, I think that when we come 930 01:06:05,632 --> 01:06:10,330 to think about social media, I think 931 01:06:10,330 --> 01:06:15,460 that the two rounds of elections in terms of attacks 932 01:06:15,460 --> 01:06:17,730 and manipulation on social media were a big success, 933 01:06:17,730 --> 01:06:20,010 but I think in Israel-- but I think 934 01:06:20,010 --> 01:06:24,760 that self-regulation of social media is insufficient. 935 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,275 I see on my space that we are running out 936 01:06:27,275 --> 01:06:28,400 of time, so I'll stop here. 937 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,926 There are more questions than I thought about. 938 01:06:30,926 --> 01:06:32,384 [INAUDIBLE] 939 01:06:32,384 --> 01:06:36,280 [APPLAUSE] 940 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,800 It would be quite circumspect to tell me. 941 01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:43,845 So let's open up for questions. 942 01:06:43,845 --> 01:06:48,640 There's some genuinely and actually 943 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,480 Justice Melcer, can we have him sit 944 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,134 here and that sort of thing. 945 01:06:54,134 --> 01:07:01,590 [INAUDIBLE] 946 01:07:01,590 --> 01:07:03,598 So, questions? 947 01:07:03,598 --> 01:07:04,098 Yeah. 948 01:07:04,098 --> 01:07:08,150 949 01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:11,182 I thank you guys so much for your talks earlier. 950 01:07:11,182 --> 01:07:12,586 Very, very interesting. 951 01:07:12,586 --> 01:07:16,610 I have two sort of small questions. 952 01:07:16,610 --> 01:07:18,835 Number one, just a question. 953 01:07:18,835 --> 01:07:20,710 When you were talking about your conversation 954 01:07:20,710 --> 01:07:25,370 with Facebook and sort of applying 955 01:07:25,370 --> 01:07:29,896 the notice of take down to Israel, to Israel, 956 01:07:29,896 --> 01:07:30,810 did the competition-- 957 01:07:30,810 --> 01:07:33,760 I know that Facebook policies in light of Cambridge Analytica 958 01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,860 are also included requirements for political ads 959 01:07:35,860 --> 01:07:39,925 to have a disclaimer who was-- 960 01:07:39,925 --> 01:07:42,070 that also part of the conversation 961 01:07:42,070 --> 01:07:43,470 that you were talking to Facebook 962 01:07:43,470 --> 01:07:44,480 about having that apply. 963 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:44,760 Yeah. 964 01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:45,260 OK. 965 01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:46,305 That's right. 966 01:07:46,305 --> 01:07:46,930 Kind of those-- 967 01:07:46,930 --> 01:07:49,030 I didn't. 968 01:07:49,030 --> 01:07:53,530 I didn't describe all the talks, but it included. 969 01:07:53,530 --> 01:07:55,750 OK. 970 01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:57,470 And the second thing is, in light 971 01:07:57,470 --> 01:08:00,280 of the instances and the examples that both of you 972 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,260 gave, one thing that sort of came to mind 973 01:08:02,260 --> 01:08:06,793 is how WhatsApp is also sort of a a political platform. 974 01:08:06,793 --> 01:08:08,710 It's not like a typical social media platform, 975 01:08:08,710 --> 01:08:10,480 but that's how information flows around 976 01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,297 as well through WhatsApp. 977 01:08:12,297 --> 01:08:14,380 So, for example, the photo you were talking about, 978 01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:17,816 how you could get the photo included on Facebook 979 01:08:17,816 --> 01:08:19,899 to say that it was them, but the photo could still 980 01:08:19,899 --> 01:08:20,800 be shared around-- 981 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:21,350 OK. 982 01:08:21,350 --> 01:08:26,180 I'll just answer a very short answer. 983 01:08:26,180 --> 01:08:31,779 The fact that the groups in WhatsApp were limited, 984 01:08:31,779 --> 01:08:36,890 I have also a share in it. 985 01:08:36,890 --> 01:08:39,020 I don't know whether you're familiar with the fact 986 01:08:39,020 --> 01:08:42,580 that the groups in WhatsApp were limited now, 987 01:08:42,580 --> 01:08:47,260 are limited now, especially in an election period. 988 01:08:47,260 --> 01:08:47,760 Right. 989 01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:48,260 OK. 990 01:08:48,260 --> 01:08:50,230 So you have an answer. 991 01:08:50,230 --> 01:08:53,590 992 01:08:53,590 --> 01:08:56,050 As other people are raising hands, 993 01:08:56,050 --> 01:08:59,419 I'd actually like to ask you a question, Justice Melcer. 994 01:08:59,419 --> 01:09:03,370 995 01:09:03,370 --> 01:09:08,830 You describe that process that is contact 996 01:09:08,830 --> 01:09:11,680 of a certain kind, a little bit of arm wrestling 997 01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,450 with the companies, but that the outcome, as you describe it, 998 01:09:15,450 --> 01:09:17,620 are using all this positive. 999 01:09:17,620 --> 01:09:20,319 Essentially, the firm said what they were good at. 1000 01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:22,970 You did what you were good at. 1001 01:09:22,970 --> 01:09:27,850 Do you have any thoughts if you are writing a new Honest Ads 1002 01:09:27,850 --> 01:09:29,632 Act for us? 1003 01:09:29,632 --> 01:09:31,090 What's the lesson, because it's not 1004 01:09:31,090 --> 01:09:33,550 private ordering or public ordering. 1005 01:09:33,550 --> 01:09:36,250 It's a very distinct public-private partnership 1006 01:09:36,250 --> 01:09:38,590 where you're taking certain responsibilities, 1007 01:09:38,590 --> 01:09:40,840 the companies are the only ones who can take others. 1008 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,850 What would be an ideal model, from your experience, 1009 01:09:45,850 --> 01:09:49,640 if we were writing an Honest Ads Act for ourselves, then? 1010 01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:52,990 First of all, to be quite frank with you, 1011 01:09:52,990 --> 01:09:58,900 there is not an ideal model, but we went too far 1012 01:09:58,900 --> 01:10:04,720 with all those big companies like Facebook and Google. 1013 01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,750 So you have to cooperate with them, 1014 01:10:07,750 --> 01:10:10,330 but still to supervise them. 1015 01:10:10,330 --> 01:10:18,400 And more than oft, them taking measures in the first instance 1016 01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:23,200 is OK, but then it's not the last word, 1017 01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:28,350 because they want to have the last word. 1018 01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:32,720 And now they think of an advisory board 1019 01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:37,310 or a quasi-judicial board which will not-- 1020 01:10:37,310 --> 01:10:40,640 will be outside Facebook but still, it 1021 01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,790 will just give recommendations, and it will not 1022 01:10:43,790 --> 01:10:45,680 be binding on Facebook. 1023 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:51,560 So I think that the two-tier mechanism will work. 1024 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:59,510 But here, it's not just that you can do the Honest Ad Act, 1025 01:10:59,510 --> 01:11:06,230 but you have to implement that, some mechanism of deciding 1026 01:11:06,230 --> 01:11:12,630 on a judge that will decide on those methods very quickly. 1027 01:11:12,630 --> 01:11:15,260 And here, because of your system, 1028 01:11:15,260 --> 01:11:20,510 it's very difficult to find such a judge that is agreed upon 1029 01:11:20,510 --> 01:11:22,690 between the two major parties. 1030 01:11:22,690 --> 01:11:25,490 So, but you can do it. 1031 01:11:25,490 --> 01:11:33,800 Now Professor Kahneman wrote the book thinking slow, 1032 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,830 thinking slow and fast, or fast and slow, as a matter of fact. 1033 01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:42,530 So you have to have, because the decisions still have 1034 01:11:42,530 --> 01:11:45,990 to have to be very, very quick. 1035 01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:49,340 So first of all, the let's say the basic, 1036 01:11:49,340 --> 01:11:51,410 because I saw it later. 1037 01:11:51,410 --> 01:11:59,810 The basic idea on the merits of the initiative of the late John 1038 01:11:59,810 --> 01:12:03,410 McCain was good on the merits, but then you 1039 01:12:03,410 --> 01:12:06,480 have to edit two more things. 1040 01:12:06,480 --> 01:12:08,770 First of all, a time limit. 1041 01:12:08,770 --> 01:12:14,570 And secondly, you have to find, let's say 1042 01:12:14,570 --> 01:12:20,870 judges in every state who will be agreed upon between the, 1043 01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:23,230 first of all, the parties and then 1044 01:12:23,230 --> 01:12:26,990 that they will be the Court of Appeal 1045 01:12:26,990 --> 01:12:33,290 of the decisions of the companies like Facebook 1046 01:12:33,290 --> 01:12:34,300 and Google. 1047 01:12:34,300 --> 01:12:38,890 And whatever they will decide would be binding. 1048 01:12:38,890 --> 01:12:42,680 Of course, later on, ex post facto, 1049 01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:50,770 you will be able to go to court in the bottom up on the, 1050 01:12:50,770 --> 01:12:54,020 let's say, principle matters to the Supreme Court of the United 1051 01:12:54,020 --> 01:12:54,770 States. 1052 01:12:54,770 --> 01:12:59,660 But you have to add in this act proposes 1053 01:12:59,660 --> 01:13:03,620 that the essence is OK, but you have 1054 01:13:03,620 --> 01:13:06,620 to add the mechanism to decide. 1055 01:13:06,620 --> 01:13:11,048 1056 01:13:11,048 --> 01:13:12,032 Thank you. 1057 01:13:12,032 --> 01:13:15,980 1058 01:13:15,980 --> 01:13:18,040 Thank you all very much for this. 1059 01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,680 So some things you need to adjudicate 1060 01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,350 are very visible, right? 1061 01:13:23,350 --> 01:13:25,930 You can see if something comes out. 1062 01:13:25,930 --> 01:13:28,030 But below the surface, there is a lot 1063 01:13:28,030 --> 01:13:32,400 of that that could be fake profiles or even just ordering 1064 01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,340 of the ads and the information in the posts 1065 01:13:36,340 --> 01:13:40,430 that we see by other people that has a great impact. 1066 01:13:40,430 --> 01:13:45,360 And that is sort of less visible and less easy to challenge, 1067 01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,530 and we're sort of trusting Facebook 1068 01:13:47,530 --> 01:13:50,870 to do that, just like they can block some hate speech. 1069 01:13:50,870 --> 01:13:54,645 And how do we trust them to make that decision 1070 01:13:54,645 --> 01:13:56,270 or how do we look at how they're making 1071 01:13:56,270 --> 01:13:58,602 that decision in a critical matter, right? 1072 01:13:58,602 --> 01:14:00,810 So, we're talking about regulating the parties, which 1073 01:14:00,810 --> 01:14:05,210 is a lot of what you did, but what about that more 1074 01:14:05,210 --> 01:14:09,440 hidden activity or the activity that Facebook is actually 1075 01:14:09,440 --> 01:14:12,460 regulating, maybe profiting or maybe has an agenda. 1076 01:14:12,460 --> 01:14:18,165 Maybe Facebook supports one of the parties, so. 1077 01:14:18,165 --> 01:14:19,120 I want to do that. 1078 01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:19,620 Yeah. 1079 01:14:19,620 --> 01:14:19,860 OK. 1080 01:14:19,860 --> 01:14:21,027 And I'll give you an answer. 1081 01:14:21,027 --> 01:14:25,070 1082 01:14:25,070 --> 01:14:34,410 My main theme is that anonymity over social networks 1083 01:14:34,410 --> 01:14:39,720 should not be allowed in times of elections. 1084 01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:44,560 Now anonymity includes everything. 1085 01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:49,470 It includes boards, it includes, how would you call it? 1086 01:14:49,470 --> 01:14:50,814 A-- 1087 01:14:50,814 --> 01:14:51,680 Fake profiles. 1088 01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:54,240 Fake profiles and so forth. 1089 01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:58,350 But that is the distinction that I make. 1090 01:14:58,350 --> 01:15:07,470 So if all those anonymity publication, 1091 01:15:07,470 --> 01:15:13,450 they should not be allowed in times of elections 1092 01:15:13,450 --> 01:15:15,340 as long as they are connected. 1093 01:15:15,340 --> 01:15:17,440 And you can't prove that they are connected 1094 01:15:17,440 --> 01:15:21,850 to any party or any candidate, or they are financed 1095 01:15:21,850 --> 01:15:24,280 by any party or any candidate. 1096 01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:29,380 Now, and that is one condition. 1097 01:15:29,380 --> 01:15:32,320 The other is, of course, if it is-- 1098 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,190 you can prove, and that you should not prove it. 1099 01:15:36,190 --> 01:15:39,910 It's the job of the security agencies. 1100 01:15:39,910 --> 01:15:45,690 If you can prove that it is made by you for a country, 1101 01:15:45,690 --> 01:15:48,110 so that is not allowed at all. 1102 01:15:48,110 --> 01:15:51,460 All the other alternatives, and even 1103 01:15:51,460 --> 01:16:01,060 if it is in a publication that uses fake profiles, 1104 01:16:01,060 --> 01:16:03,850 and it's not connected to any party, 1105 01:16:03,850 --> 01:16:09,280 and it's not financed by any party, I would allow it, 1106 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:16,210 because I don't want to go to limit too much free 1107 01:16:16,210 --> 01:16:19,840 speech and the First Amendment rules you have. 1108 01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:22,360 In any case, it would not go through the Supreme 1109 01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,270 Court of your country. 1110 01:16:24,270 --> 01:16:34,030 So you have to adjust yourself to your culture, your bigger 1111 01:16:34,030 --> 01:16:34,750 culture. 1112 01:16:34,750 --> 01:16:38,580 And, by the way, I am a believer of that concept, 1113 01:16:38,580 --> 01:16:39,950 and you saw it as well. 1114 01:16:39,950 --> 01:16:42,260 So there are two exceptions. 1115 01:16:42,260 --> 01:16:47,140 One, if any such a publication is 1116 01:16:47,140 --> 01:16:50,620 made by a party, or by someone, or any group 1117 01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:55,020 that is connected to a party, or any candidate, 1118 01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:57,580 or it is financed by them. 1119 01:16:57,580 --> 01:17:00,460 And the second one, if it is initiated 1120 01:17:00,460 --> 01:17:04,540 by any foreign government. 1121 01:17:04,540 --> 01:17:13,900 Now you have to improve your, let's say, reporting procedures 1122 01:17:13,900 --> 01:17:16,750 as far as financing. 1123 01:17:16,750 --> 01:17:19,000 Let's say elections, and you have 1124 01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:25,500 to change the decision of a few court in Citizens United. 1125 01:17:25,500 --> 01:17:29,330 I, here, I support the minority above the majority. 1126 01:17:29,330 --> 01:17:35,920 And in Israel, we have laws governing those matters here, 1127 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:43,960 so you have to make a change in your decision of your Supreme 1128 01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:44,830 Court. 1129 01:17:44,830 --> 01:17:50,240 And the-- OK, I don't want to interfere too much here, 1130 01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:58,930 but I personally prefer the minority, not the majority. 1131 01:17:58,930 --> 01:17:59,460 OK. 1132 01:17:59,460 --> 01:18:02,230 Just to add to that, it's -- 1133 01:18:02,230 --> 01:18:08,660 so bank accounts are allowed [INAUDIBLE] and votes. 1134 01:18:08,660 --> 01:18:10,980 And I'm not allowed on Facebook. 1135 01:18:10,980 --> 01:18:13,930 And once you have a decision of that sort, that 1136 01:18:13,930 --> 01:18:17,100 would allow you also to prevent any kind of social media 1137 01:18:17,100 --> 01:18:22,300 that are not implementing policies 1138 01:18:22,300 --> 01:18:26,230 to prevent the use of false or fake accounts, 1139 01:18:26,230 --> 01:18:29,720 and that is by using a [INAUDIBLE] situation. 1140 01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,520 I'm glad we got a drop of follow up in that form, 1141 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,200 because I want to push you a little bit on the role 1142 01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:37,480 of a gay civil society. 1143 01:18:37,480 --> 01:18:39,250 Mm-hmm? 1144 01:18:39,250 --> 01:18:42,490 Even in the present system, let alone the system that we are-- 1145 01:18:42,490 --> 01:18:46,020 messenger and WhatsApp are important. 1146 01:18:46,020 --> 01:18:47,860 The civil society activists are going 1147 01:18:47,860 --> 01:18:49,449 about providing in terms of service 1148 01:18:49,449 --> 01:18:50,783 in order to get the information. 1149 01:18:50,783 --> 01:18:51,730 Yeah. 1150 01:18:51,730 --> 01:18:54,050 They have to pretend to be somebody else, exactly 1151 01:18:54,050 --> 01:18:55,420 the things you want to get on. 1152 01:18:55,420 --> 01:19:01,370 How sustainable is a strategy that 1153 01:19:01,370 --> 01:19:04,910 depends on civil society that has 1154 01:19:04,910 --> 01:19:06,590 to, with the case of academics quite 1155 01:19:06,590 --> 01:19:10,940 possibly violate research methods In the case 1156 01:19:10,940 --> 01:19:15,170 of some civil society acts or certain civil violated in terms 1157 01:19:15,170 --> 01:19:15,770 of service? 1158 01:19:15,770 --> 01:19:17,340 Do you really want that? 1159 01:19:17,340 --> 01:19:19,760 Absolutely. 1160 01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:25,030 And the reason is that I think that the things I know. 1161 01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:27,330 I think that is true not just for election time. 1162 01:19:27,330 --> 01:19:29,080 I think that it's true in general. 1163 01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,500 I think that we should have an exemption 1164 01:19:32,500 --> 01:19:34,740 for these type of tests and tinkering, 1165 01:19:34,740 --> 01:19:39,472 because we need access to data, and to technology, 1166 01:19:39,472 --> 01:19:41,930 and to algorithms which are being-- that are regulating us. 1167 01:19:41,930 --> 01:19:46,824 And if we are now going to have an exception for that, 1168 01:19:46,824 --> 01:19:47,616 then we are doomed. 1169 01:19:47,616 --> 01:19:49,420 I mean, we don't have any access. 1170 01:19:49,420 --> 01:19:49,920 So-- 1171 01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:51,587 So you want a specific legal exemption-- 1172 01:19:51,587 --> 01:19:52,300 Absolutely. 1173 01:19:52,300 --> 01:19:55,970 --for what apps? 1174 01:19:55,970 --> 01:19:56,860 Yes. 1175 01:19:56,860 --> 01:19:58,160 Yes, absolutely. 1176 01:19:58,160 --> 01:19:59,750 And I think it's important not just 1177 01:19:59,750 --> 01:20:03,200 in the context of elections, but definitely 1178 01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:07,070 here, I think it was successful in the sense 1179 01:20:07,070 --> 01:20:12,720 that if allowed the public to get information that we would 1180 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,656 never, ever discover otherwise. 1181 01:20:16,656 --> 01:20:19,610 1182 01:20:19,610 --> 01:20:24,810 And I would like to ask you how do we act to fake bots that 1183 01:20:24,810 --> 01:20:29,660 are activated from another country from the world, 1184 01:20:29,660 --> 01:20:34,278 even though Google, Facebook are growth op companies. 1185 01:20:34,278 --> 01:20:40,750 It's just other thing to react to those fake news [INAUDIBLE].. 1186 01:20:40,750 --> 01:20:42,080 OK. 1187 01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:46,270 Here I'll answer your question with another case 1188 01:20:46,270 --> 01:20:47,370 that came before me. 1189 01:20:47,370 --> 01:20:50,260 1190 01:20:50,260 --> 01:20:54,980 As I told you, there was a quick procedure of notice 1191 01:20:54,980 --> 01:20:56,380 and take down. 1192 01:20:56,380 --> 01:21:03,340 And in one of the cases, there was an allegation against one 1193 01:21:03,340 --> 01:21:09,310 of the members of the Knesset from an Arabic list. 1194 01:21:09,310 --> 01:21:15,370 And the allegation came up anonymously from Qatar. 1195 01:21:15,370 --> 01:21:19,930 Now he used the notice and takedown procedure, 1196 01:21:19,930 --> 01:21:25,030 but from their reasons, Facebook didn't take it down. 1197 01:21:25,030 --> 01:21:28,750 And then he made a petition to me. 1198 01:21:28,750 --> 01:21:33,920 And then I had also a problem because it was Qatar, 1199 01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:35,450 so I told-- 1200 01:21:35,450 --> 01:21:43,400 I made it again, an interim injunction. 1201 01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:48,230 And I asked Facebook, who is active in Qatar, 1202 01:21:48,230 --> 01:21:53,990 to tell the one that initiated the publication that he 1203 01:21:53,990 --> 01:22:02,120 has the right to react on the injunction. 1204 01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:06,080 But in the meanwhile, I told them to take it down. 1205 01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,810 And they took it down immediately. 1206 01:22:08,810 --> 01:22:13,650 Five hours later, he opened a new account. 1207 01:22:13,650 --> 01:22:14,150 OK. 1208 01:22:14,150 --> 01:22:18,500 And then I ordered-- 1209 01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:21,020 I initialed another injunction. 1210 01:22:21,020 --> 01:22:24,570 And then I asked them again to let 1211 01:22:24,570 --> 01:22:29,330 him know that something like this happened, 1212 01:22:29,330 --> 01:22:31,670 and he had the right to react. 1213 01:22:31,670 --> 01:22:34,190 His reaction was that he would sue me 1214 01:22:34,190 --> 01:22:39,180 in many international forms. 1215 01:22:39,180 --> 01:22:43,410 Till now, he didn't sue me, and they took it down. 1216 01:22:43,410 --> 01:22:46,020 And then he made it for the third time. 1217 01:22:46,020 --> 01:22:50,490 And the third time that I issued the third injunction, 1218 01:22:50,490 --> 01:22:54,480 and then I told Facebook that I want them 1219 01:22:54,480 --> 01:22:58,180 to disclose who is behind that. 1220 01:22:58,180 --> 01:23:00,920 Then it stopped. 1221 01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:01,420 OK? 1222 01:23:01,420 --> 01:23:05,933 So probably it gives you an answer. 1223 01:23:05,933 --> 01:23:07,350 I think we have time for one more. 1224 01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:14,245 1225 01:23:14,245 --> 01:23:15,370 Thank you so much for that. 1226 01:23:15,370 --> 01:23:16,990 So, I'm visiting here. 1227 01:23:16,990 --> 01:23:18,130 I am from away. 1228 01:23:18,130 --> 01:23:21,220 And actually, last week we, in Georgetown University, 1229 01:23:21,220 --> 01:23:26,740 we had the pleasure of hosting Mr. Zuckerberg in the capacity 1230 01:23:26,740 --> 01:23:27,910 of a student club. 1231 01:23:27,910 --> 01:23:28,990 I'm an Israeli lawyer. 1232 01:23:28,990 --> 01:23:30,490 My name is [INAUDIBLE]. 1233 01:23:30,490 --> 01:23:34,340 In the capacity of the students club that we founded there, 1234 01:23:34,340 --> 01:23:36,820 the Georgetown Tech Policy Initiative, 1235 01:23:36,820 --> 01:23:39,075 and I asked him in the closed conversation, 1236 01:23:39,075 --> 01:23:41,320 I asked him, so, Mr. Zuckerberg, who 1237 01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,048 should regulate the internet? 1238 01:23:43,048 --> 01:23:45,340 Because right, all the questions they are all about who 1239 01:23:45,340 --> 01:23:49,060 really have the ability to regulate the internet? 1240 01:23:49,060 --> 01:23:52,630 And a lot of the feasible data and showing the algorithms. 1241 01:23:52,630 --> 01:23:56,200 And I was fascinated by the fact that you said that you have 1242 01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,050 to negotiate with them, right? 1243 01:23:59,050 --> 01:24:04,450 Not even in the common law way that we act as a state. 1244 01:24:04,450 --> 01:24:06,280 So, what what's your response? 1245 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:08,830 Who do you think should regulate the internet? 1246 01:24:08,830 --> 01:24:12,730 The government or it actually should be stayed the same way 1247 01:24:12,730 --> 01:24:13,790 as today? 1248 01:24:13,790 --> 01:24:14,290 Thank you. 1249 01:24:14,290 --> 01:24:16,870 1250 01:24:16,870 --> 01:24:18,060 OK. 1251 01:24:18,060 --> 01:24:20,700 In the first place, I think that the government 1252 01:24:20,700 --> 01:24:25,260 or the parliament should regulate the-- 1253 01:24:25,260 --> 01:24:29,230 as it regulates other markets, but we went too far. 1254 01:24:29,230 --> 01:24:34,230 And now, if you want to get to effective remedies, 1255 01:24:34,230 --> 01:24:39,050 you should talk to all those companies, 1256 01:24:39,050 --> 01:24:42,670 but you have to make it very clear 1257 01:24:42,670 --> 01:24:47,270 that the decision, the final decision is not there. 1258 01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:49,730 So, and they understand it. 1259 01:24:49,730 --> 01:24:56,330 And if they understand this simple fact, 1260 01:24:56,330 --> 01:25:04,880 and then an injunction or other remedy is issued against them, 1261 01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:07,390 then they understand it even better. 1262 01:25:07,390 --> 01:25:10,900 So, that is the way to handle such a thing. 1263 01:25:10,900 --> 01:25:12,490 So thank you. 1264 01:25:12,490 --> 01:25:14,210 I just-- I'm still reeling from the idea 1265 01:25:14,210 --> 01:25:20,000 that you asked Facebook to create an appeal 1266 01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:25,130 process for somebody in Qatar for an Israeli decision about 1267 01:25:25,130 --> 01:25:26,060 take down. 1268 01:25:26,060 --> 01:25:29,060 This is the sweet beyond belief. 1269 01:25:29,060 --> 01:25:30,350 No, but seriously. 1270 01:25:30,350 --> 01:25:34,050 Thank you for that kind of creativity, for the courage. 1271 01:25:34,050 --> 01:25:35,810 We're not going to solve it all here, 1272 01:25:35,810 --> 01:25:38,600 but thank you for taking the time to teach us, 1273 01:25:38,600 --> 01:25:40,700 to talk to us. 1274 01:25:40,700 --> 01:25:42,740 We all have a lot of learning to do 1275 01:25:42,740 --> 01:25:44,420 together and from each other. 1276 01:25:44,420 --> 01:25:44,990 Thank you. 1277 01:25:44,990 --> 01:25:45,490 Thank you. 1278 01:25:45,490 --> 01:25:47,140 [APPLAUSE] 1279 01:25:47,140 --> 01:25:48,694